Entrepreneurial
Entrepreneurial
Making Real & NFT Handbags | Baggy London Founder & CEO, Claire Zhong | Bag Manufacturing, Crypto & Web3 Fashion Boutique
Baggy makes real ruffle handbags & NFT bags. Unintuitive lessons from Claire Zhong: That impatience can be a virtue. That what resonates with people wins — and that’s not always correlated with how much time you've put into it. That maximalist designs can be worn by minimalists and grungy people. That you can make a business out of a product that’s not really your style. And while we're at it: hit baggylondon.com with the code ENTREPRENEURIAL15 for 15% off her amazing, colorful, fluffy, fun, maximalist bags.
Chapters
(00:00:00) Intro & Origins
(00:02:53) NFT Bags
(00:08:05) Learning How to Sew
(00:10:19) Making of the First Physical Bag
(00:15:15) Impatience as a Virtue
(00:18:48) From Idea to First Product in One Day
(00:21:47) The Randomness of What Resonates with People
(00:23:33) Loving the Creation Process over Having Expectations
(00:26:04) Weeks Passed until the First Sale
(00:28:39) What Makes a Trend
(00:33:21) Seeing a Baggy Girl in the Wild
(00:35:37) World Wide Audience
(00:38:07) Operational Flow & Fulfillment Process
(00:43:29) Sales Channels
(00:44:42) Challenges & Getting Designs Stolen
(00:49:05) Advice
(00:52:02) Juggling Full-Time Job as a Product Manager
(00:54:29) What's Next
(00:57:25) Thanks
Claire Zhong is the founder of Baggy, which is a London-based brand that makes NFT and real handsewn bags. Claire and I met at Phillips Academy Andover, a boarding school in Massachusetts, where we were the best of friends. So, Claire, I've been wanting to do this for a long time. And in my mind, you're always like the first person I interviewed. So I'm so happy you're here.
Claire Zhong:Thanks for having me. I'm so pleased that you've taken the leap with Entrepreneurial as well, I know that this is something that you've wanted to do to kind of capture the stories of founders. So thanks for having me on.
Rhaime Kim:One of my memories of you, when we were in high school, was you falling asleep with a physics textbook in your arms in my little chair in my room. You were super creative back then. I feel like with your full time job, as a product manager at Depop, and with Baggy, you've kind of found your tech and like art niche.
Claire Zhong:It was a journey getting here. I definitely didn't think that there was going to be a role in the real world that kind of satisfied me and satiated me from both like a tech perspective and art and fashion perspective. But I really think I've found it. And luckily, it's something that has a lot of synergies with my side passion projects as well. So absolutely. You know, it's been a long journey here, but I think I'm in a happy place right now with with where I am.
Rhaime Kim:Yeah. Well, tell me about how you got started with Baggy. When did you get started and how did the idea come about?
Claire Zhong:I've always wanted to create a fashion product. Over COVID, I learned how to sew I think like a lot of other folk, I've been selling on Depop for a while. I think since university I sold thrifted items, and secondhand on Depop. I really enjoyed the styling, the packaging -- the entire process of creating a brand, and creating styled items that folk enjoy. So over COVID, I really took that to the next level by creating handsewn accessories like bandanas and scrunchies. And even little denim bags. I think a lot of people were doing that at the time. And then in late 2021, I took the next step to creating an NFT inspired fashion boutique, Baggy London, where we sell kind of ruffle handbags. As you kind of mentioned, we have both an NFT side of the business as well as an analog real humbug side of the business. And the kind of ladder is where I'm focusing most of my energy right now.
Rhaime Kim:I feel like fashion and creativity like all that stuff has always been a part of your interest. So I'm curious, when did you first have the idea of Baggy? And did that start with like a
Claire Zhong:sketch? Of course. So we started back in the end of 2021. And, you know, it's an interesting story, because if you cast your mind back to that time, it was a time where NF T's were all the rage, but I've long had a fascination with kind of web three and crypto. I worked in a blockchain startup incubator in 2016. And my role at the time was specifically in kind of rallying and connecting founders who are women and underrepresented minorities in blockchain and crypto, as well as other emerging tech like AR and VR as well. Back in 2021, and even today, if you took a look at open sea or any other NFT marketplace, it was chock full of traditionally male subjects and collectibles. You know, gaming board a yacht club. I don't know if you've had a look at that. And you know, like you said, I've always been super interested in are super creative. And with NF T's being heralded as the intersection between tech and art, I was expecting to see art that obviously resonated with me, and that I loved as well. But yeah, I wasn't really seeing anything that was nuanced, inspiring or appealing. I don't know if you remember or no like the metal Birkin series. But these were like the first NF T's that showed me like the transcendent possibilities that digital art hard. Just for those who don't know, the metal Birkins was created by a digital artist and they kind of created a series of NFT handbags inspired by the Birkin. But they were really like cool and beautiful. And it was, you know, quite fitting because if you think about luxury handbags, their value is definitely super transcendent and symbolic, more than the sum of its parts just like NF T's and yeah, these images they were so Super exciting and artful. There were all these bags that were colorful, textured, structural, and conceptual, which really inspired me to create my own series of metal handbags under the baggy leather name. And yeah, baggies, founding mission statement was to raise the profile and accessibility of web three, and crypto and women by bridging the real life world of fashion and shopping with the more nebulous, intimidating world of web three. And to answer your question, baggy London, the analog Boggs was the first kind of we production ized, one of our more kind of realistic designs, and we actually funded that production through one of our NFT sales. And the reason why we're kind of a web three crypto Boutique is because our fashion kind of story and origin is super inspired by like, the bigger, more transcendent structural shapes that digital art really enables. So we had these, like Super Bowl signs that were, you know, really made possible by like cutting collaging and curating imagery in a kind of more digital art way. So yeah, our first design was an NFT. That was production ized. Yeah,
Rhaime Kim:I didn't know that baggies, actual for sale was the NFT concept. So I wonder if in a way, you felt like the sale of the NFT bag meant that the real life design would also do well? Or for you was it just like the practicality of it is easier to generate a digital version, and then to production realize it is a little bit of a different problem?
Claire Zhong:Yeah, I think you make a good point there. I think the reason why I've always loved digital art. And I guess just like manipulation of images is because it's so accessible. And I think when you're like a visual person, being able to make possible and make real things that are just in your head, with all these shortcuts that are available to you, you know, there are so many, you know, references that we can derive from so many imagery, so much imagery that we can literally just copy and paste in this, you know, new digital landscape that we exist in that it was so much easier for me to be able to bring to life something through digital means. But then obviously marrying that with my love for style and my love for fashion and my penchant for sewing, it kind of just made sense that now I had you know, 800 USD from the sale of an NFT this was more than enough to find, or first. I know, and you know, having hustled and made real bags, over COVID. And each bag would take me like three or four hours to make. And I would make what like $25 from that. I was like I actually didn't want to do the analog side anymore. I was like, let's just keep making NF T's. But then, you know, well, I wanted to wear these bags. I wanted my friends to wear these bags. Yeah. So that's why we progressed with the real life prototype.
Rhaime Kim:So you actually so the first bags. Yeah. Is Did you hand sew them? Do you have a sewing machine? Like how did that work?
Claire Zhong:Yeah, good question. So I have a sewing machine. And like I said, like over COVID I made like, quite simple things like bandanas scrunchies. And then also these like bugs that were a bit shit because they didn't have lighting but I sold them anyways. And I said it took me three or four hours to make them. But yeah, of course bug was made on a sewing machine on like a brother sewing machine. It was a lot smaller than the current prototype. Like think like the Lady Dior like the smallest size, and it was actually a top handle bag. The bag now is actually a lot bigger. It's like akin to like an A five size and it has more like a shoulder strap. But yeah, that was that was the first design that I made.
Rhaime Kim:How did you learn how to sew? Did you watch like YouTube videos or learn it from somebody in person?
Claire Zhong:Yeah, so I I don't think I like learn how to sew properly. I'm quite like an impatient person, you know, a bit of a through line from like digital art stuff. It's so easy to take shortcuts, like I mentioned on really quickly production is something that's real and tangible. Sewing is not like that poultry is not like that. So I learned how to use a sewing machine like the basics of how to thread the needle, how to get it going, but definitely didn't like really kind of learn how to like cut patterns, understand like different textures and different materials properly. Which causes you a lot of headaches for everyone who's a seamstress or a dress. Make her out there, you'll know. But yeah, it was over COVID I was at my boyfriend's mom's house. And she had a sewing machine. So I learned how to sew from her and myself and my boyfriend sister would work on creating all of these accessories to be sold on Depop. So yeah, that's where my sewing experience comes from.
Rhaime Kim:This is like the the nice feminine version of creating like a software startup in a garage. I guess it's like, you know, you your boyfriend's mom and your boyfriend, sister? I think that's really cute. Did you point of like hands of hand crafting those first few bags? Did you have a pet pattern that was formally drawn out? I don't really know how the planning of those things like work? Or did you have a visual representation of what the final product would look like?
Claire Zhong:Yeah, um, what I did was I created like a pattern through just cardboard. So I physically kind of like built out like, imagine like a 3d model, I built out like a body of the bag. And then basically, like, the key signature of the bog is like the ruffle on the shoulder strap. So you have to kind of sew that against the, the handles, so you can't really kind of emulate that with with cardstock. But that's kind of how I started it. But to actually get them productionize, I, my mom actually found a tailor. And we still use them today to make all of our bugs, I sent her the prototype, and my mom is an absolute superstar. She's very similar to me, in the sense that she gets things done super quickly. So I sent it to her and she immediately like the first line of samples productionize. And it was so amazing for, you know, myself being the impatient person that I am to kind of see everything come to fruition so quickly. But you know, when I first got the bags back, they were actually a lot bigger than I thought they were going to be. And it was quite jarring. If you cast your mind back, if anyone, like small baguette bags, like we're all the rage news structured mini bag, it was all about like y2k, 90s tiny bags, and I've just got these huge bags, like fuck off bags that were not called handle bags, which what was what I imagined they were huge. And actually, it's funny because it was so unlike anything that was on the market at the time, that it really like destabilize, like my entire idea for what bikie was. And it was really Scarah. But I'm really glad that we stuck to that original dimension, because the times have caught up with and now it's all about these big organic silhouettes. And they're colorful as well. And I think it really like edifies our kind of like foundational ethos of being big, being colorful taking up space. Like why do you have to have a tiny ass bag that doesn't fit anything? You want a bag that really makes a statement? Exactly. And I'm just so glad that we stuck with that, even though at the time it was quite jarring.
Rhaime Kim:Okay, wait. So you're saying that the interpretation of the tailor was to create bags that were slightly bigger because you were first envisioning like a much smaller baguette kind of trendy bag, but you actually ended up sticking with the larger design. Is that right?
Claire Zhong:Yes. So I think the prototype was a lot smaller, it was like a top handle bag. But the depths of the actual body meant that you couldn't actually put anything in it. So I think maybe for the tailor is also easier to work with just like bigger dimensions as well. So it ended up being a lot bigger, but because they're so colorful, it it felt really big and it was like finger them and it's like ruffled so it's like very voluminous but we stuck with I think we went with that interpretation of it. And it's so interesting how the bug gets interpreted from like its digital form and then free interpreted to its analog form and then reinterpreted through somebody else's eyes and this is a through line that you know I I see in bodies evolution as well and power customers wear and dumb the bags. So it's just yeah, super cool and super exciting to have the bag go through those evolutions.
Rhaime Kim:Yeah, and it really changed and I think something that I've noticed about you Claire is like you're always working on different things. And I think a lot of people say hey, I have this idea in the back of my mind or don't you think this would be a good idea? And they're honestly good ideas. But I feel like you're always like actually doing stuff so it It's cool to see that like you mentioned, you're impatient, I guess, you can start with NF T's and like, you know, having digital products, but then you just keep on changing as new inputs and new situations arise, which is, like really cool. You said that you're like impatient. And I feel like that's something that's also something I'm trying to grapple with. But do you think that that helps in your creation process? Or is that something you're actively working on? Like, as you grow the business, you have to become more patient,
Claire Zhong:I think I've done a lot of work to kind of harness impatience into a virtue. So I think, being super self aware, I think a lot of women kind of over philosophize or pathologize the way that they are. And that's definitely one of our strengths, because we're super considerate and self aware. But then sometimes that can work against us. And I think going back to your first point about lots of people always talk about wanting to start something, or they always have these great ideas, or they kind of talk it to death. I think it's because we over index on wanting to have a super coherent kind of plan of action, as well as like a narrative for what you're doing, to make it worth doing. And definitely was something that we observed in baggy as well, like, I had this super lofty goal at the basic beginning of baggy to say, you know, what I want to do is I want to raise awareness of crypto and web three, through baggy. Because I've seen all of these, like traditionally male subjects, I want to proliferate and make, you know, raise the profile of female subjects or traditionally morpheme feminine subjects like fashion and shopping and, and help women find the sort of art that they'd like to see in web three. And I really kind of over intellectualized and, you know, really tried to narrative eyes that that side of the business. But you know, what, like NFT and web three, it's hard to crack, it's hard to sell things on the theory of network, and especially with what we've seen with web three, even though it's something that I definitely want to revisit in the future, it's taken me on this journey, where I just really enjoy making these bugs and really enjoy seeing them on my customers. And it's, it's helped me kind of pivot and learn from having that product out to the market. And then I really feel like I have reached product market fit with something that is completely divorced from like the initial genealogy of I guess what, what we're trying to do? To answer your question, I think, you know, I've really seen the value of my impatience. You know, even though I did a lot of work to make sure that I had a really coherent story. I'm too impatient, be a perfectionist, I'm too impatient to Yeah, I just get things out there, I create content, I did so much social media activation at the beginning, even though it got absolutely no engagement. But it was just something that I kept wanting to do. So that's definitely a trait that's helped me out throughout throughout the course of throughout the course, of boggy. And I hope will continue to be endemic to the way that I am and the way that I kind of go about being enterprising and building ventures in the future as well.
Rhaime Kim:Yeah, definitely. Because I think the easiest way to learn is by doing right, there's so much content on the internet about you can learn how to do so many different things. But if you're just always at that stage of planning and planning, it's like, trust me, it's like the fastest way you'll learn is just by your own mistakes and your own little, you know, realizations about how to do things the best way. So, you mentioned that you got your first bags from the tailor. And I would imagine that your family was based in Shanghai then is a tailor, you know, in in Shanghai and sending the goods between China and where you are in the UK in London, was there several weeks in between? And what did that back and forth process initially look like? From when you share the designs with the tailor, maybe the time period it took until when you were you actually had the final product and were able to start selling them online? It actually wasn't very
Claire Zhong:long at all. And we have WeChat so I sent my mom the designs and she really is like the backbone of the business. And when I said that things get reinterpreted. I think she probably interpreted the designs and you know, communicated that with the tailor in the way that she does. So I think I I told her, I sent her the bag and went to sleep and then the next morning she had them done. They were photos and my
Rhaime Kim:WeChat bye That is and so satisfying. But you did you know, they were that big when you got the photos?
Claire Zhong:No. And also just a bit shocking as well. It's like, it's literally like you had a dream. And it just happened. Literally, but yeah, literally that. So yeah, I went to went to bed woke up saw the photos, and then it took maybe like two weeks for the bugs to get to me. But then I'm trying to remember what it was like because I obviously had to like set up my website. I think we had Instagram at the time, take product photos. See this is an example of my impatience as well. The product photos that you see to this day, are not actually like product photos I took of the bags, when they got to me like with like studio lighting, they were the photos that my mom took up the bog using her like shitty android phone
Rhaime Kim:sent over. I had no idea.
Claire Zhong:You're not even high quality photos. But I remember just taking those photos and they had like all the shit in the background of, you know, just like the Taylor's work room. I just took those images, I cut the background out. And I just like chucked it on some like, random, like, picture on my camera roll. And I was like, Oh, that's good enough. And those are the same images that are like used and circulated and reproduced for baggy today, we have like 1.4 million, like read pins on Pinterest on some of these images. So it really does show that cool. That's yeah, there's no, there's no correlation between how much effort you put into something. And serendipitously, you know how much people resonate with them?
Rhaime Kim:Yeah, and that's a really interesting, like, kind of conclusion you made there. Because I mean, I guess we all only have 24 hours in a day. And so it's like, how did things catch on like, like you said, sometimes it's unexpected. It's probably like a concept that like, resonates with somebody, not necessarily about the technical quality of the photographs and stuff. But I honestly would have never guessed. So both your mom, maybe she's a good photographer, but you're probably also good, like, editor.
Claire Zhong:Yeah, I think as product managers, you always learn to, you know, to kind of discern patterns in the things that you're doing, you know, every experiment that you've run is, is like, you're testing hypotheses, and you're iterating with the learnings from those hypotheses towards like, an end goal. And you have this like strategic direction that you're slowly codifying through all of your learnings. And generally, there are trends and things are illogical, sometimes things are random. But when it comes to like, the visual medium, and with fashion, there are trends there as well. But I do think that it is generally like quite random, like when I've run Instagram ads, like there really is no rhyme or reason with what sort of imagery, what sort of composition and what sort of, yeah, just like style of photography works well and resonates with Yeah, so I do think that like bias to action helps in those scenarios. Because as long as it's stuff that you're happy creating, and it's stuff that you're you feel is authentic to you, you're gonna enjoy doing it. And being able to kind of propagate that to a wider audience will just give you a higher chance of success in terms of Yeah, like getting your product out there.
Rhaime Kim:I don't know if you know your personality thing you but are you like I like intuitive or whatever? Intuition. Is it?
Claire Zhong:What's the opposite of what is the opposite of intuitive one? I think I am though, I'm 100% an intuitive person.
Rhaime Kim:Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Because I love advice like that. Because, I mean, even for me with this podcast, I just want to create, you know, and I try to do my studying and listen to other people's stuff. I think it's important to learn about other people's lessons because they can save you time. But ultimately, if you're really trying to kind of stamp something that somebody else did, my belief is that it's not going to work as well as it had for that person because they figured it out and they have some kind of special sauce. So it's cool to hear that, you know, you're just kind of putting things out there that you like, and then it's just a game of experimentation. Really, you don't always know what's gonna
Claire Zhong:hit for sure. But I think the difference perhaps, is, you know, it's so important that and this is something I've learned and I'm sure you have as well like you said, this is something you've always wanted to do even if no one listens, you know you're getting something out of it. You're getting to hear all of these people's stories and it's just something that you're passionate about. Similarly with with baggy like being able to create these like visual stories on kind of visual mediums. And a way of kind of bringing the product to life is something I'm going to enjoy doing, regardless of who's liking or buying my bags. And I think kind of, you know, it really comes down to like, why you're doing something, if you're doing something because you think that you're gonna go viral, or you're you're going to hit the jackpot or get lucky, then that's the wrong reason to do it. Because statistically, that's not going to happen. And it's not happened for me either. You know, there wasn't that aha moment, there was no viral moment for me, I never went viral. And you know, it's slow and steady, it's not glamorous. So if you don't enjoy that process, then you're not going to, you're it's not going to endure, and you're not going to be around in x months time. So I really think that like finding that thing that really represents not only like the outcome and output, but you know, a means of creating that really, you really enjoy it is super, super important. What's been the,
Rhaime Kim:what was it like to have your first analog bag sale? So your physical bag,
Claire Zhong:so I kind of mentioned that it took like one day for the bag to actually come into fruition? Which, yeah, but then to get my first sale, that was definitely longer. I think it might have been actually like, a few weeks. And that was super challenging and super discouraging. And it does kind of put into question here. Like, there are folks out there who put years and years of r&d into creating things, people who went to fashion school, people who are so learned about, you know, fashion, fashion houses, creative directors over the years for all of these massive fashion houses, and it does just knock your confidence in terms of flow, there's a reason that so much time and effort goes into it. Nobody is buying my Boggs, you know. And yeah, I remember literally sitting in front of the TV, and like, being like to my boyfriend, like I've got no sales. And then like the next hour being like, I've gotten no sales and he's like shut up. And it was really discouraging, because the bag was so different. So unlike anything on the market, I really had no evidence to suggest that I would make even one sale. You know, obviously I had experience selling other things like vintage or thrifted clothes, but the very nature of intention thrifted clothes is that they've been worn before you have the social that somebody's worn before. And even the handmade accessories I made, you know, they were pretty derivative of other things that you saw on the market. And that's what makes them I guess, like purchasable sellable. So this felt a lot more risky, a lot more personal. But yeah, my approach really was like quantity over quality at the time. Lots of social media, lots of content. My boyfriend sister told me that my videos are super, too good millennials. So we had to pivot from that as well. But then eventually, my first sale was actually not from a friend it was from just a random person. So that was super shocking. Oh my god. Yeah. And so real, super surreal. I remember like looking up their name on social media being like, they must be a freak. And no, they were just a normal, fashion loving girl. And that was honestly so exciting. And so amazing. And then I started getting some sales from my friends as well, which is obviously great. And then I think, yeah, like they were them, their friends, ask them where they get that from, and then the cycle kind of continues from there.
Rhaime Kim:Because it's so iconic, right? Like your bags, I guess you're saying that actually the Taylor's interpretation, your mom's may be of the bag being much bigger. And because it has a pop of color and the ruffle, it's very loud. Like, it's a statement piece. If somebody's wearing it. I feel like I could totally see somebody being like, Oh, where'd you get that from? Like, you know, especially if it's like the hot pink color.
Claire Zhong:Yeah, and it kind of a lot of my friends told me initially, like, you know, this is the only thing that I wear, that gets me a lot of compliments. And I was reflecting on that. And I was like, it doesn't really mean necessarily that they love it. You know, when somebody just wears something that's a little bit out there, you haven't even had the time to decide whether or not you like it or you don't like it, you're going to comment on it and you're just going to naturally what you're gonna say is like, I like that, but then I think that's kind of what's exciting and fun about fashion. Anyways, like you don't need to immediately like like something or make that decision. It just needs to be memorable. And then with times and with with Yeah, just like the times catching on and with all of the different cultural symbols that kind of evolve, people will like it and learn to love it. And I think that actually is what makes certain fashion pieces more iconic and more enduring. Yeah, so So yeah, I guess my takeaway from that is like, people don't need to like it immediately. But the fact that it's memorable, I think has really made beckylyn than the success that it has been to date.
Rhaime Kim:Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, what you're saying about that it's like Birkenstocks or crocs. It's like you first look at it. And you're like, yes. kind of shocking. But then you got it. Yeah. Or even just when this trends change, you're like, Oh, those sunglasses look weird. I think it's a little bit extra. And then you keep looking at it. And you're like, you know what, I kind of want it now. So yeah, I guess? Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I think because your bags are such a statement piece. I guess they end up marketing themselves.
Claire Zhong:Yeah, I think I agree with you. I love the marketing side of things. Predominantly, because they market themselves, like, like you said, and, you know, I was gonna say earlier to your point about Crocs or sunglasses. I work at Depop we say this thing where style is a function of clothes, and the people that wear them, I want to add to that, as well. It's probably a function of the uploads the people as well as the time and the zeitgeist that they exist within. And I think that's so what's so wonderful even with what I've observed. Baaghi is like the constant is like the bag we've only had one style, which is also something that I'm super proud of, because you know, with the cultivation of micro trends and sustainability in fashion, you really don't want to be feeding into that. But I guess when you cross clothes and people and time what you get is this like abundant reflection of clothes and items being styled and worn again and again, each time reproducing and being you know, derivative of symbols that exists within the time. But then each time the wearer and the person kind of adds like their unique essence to it. And it's what I love about this whole journey with baggy as well. It's what makes fashion like not obvious. When I started this brand, you know where this colorful, roughly bog, you immediately think more like a cottage coquette vibe, you know, and that's not really my style, you know, mean? Like this maximalist vibe, and that's definitely direction that envisioned the brand taking on in absence of any of the girls or people wearing them. But then over time, even over these past like two or so years, I've seen girls wear the bags and so many different styles like minimalist, grungy, more romantic, more scandium interesting, you know, like Hawaii, stylings, girls like putting claw clips and bows and even like low of a brooches on them. And obviously, we have all of these colors and styles beyond categorization that I'm sure you know what we'll continue to see. And yeah, that's what makes this whole, like seeing bags on customers. Super exciting. And even if the bag itself doesn't really change the context within which it exists. And the fact that style is this amazing function of baggy, but then also baggy girls, is actually what just makes all of this super, super exciting
Rhaime Kim:recently, did you bump into somebody who was wearing the baggy bags?
Claire Zhong:Oh my god. Yeah, like that really was my I made a moment. It really is crazy. And I was doing the math in my head being like, okay, what are the chances but anyways, I'll tell you because it's it was such a great moment. For me. I was just walking in Shoreditch after the gym or something. And I saw on the distance this girl with this denim baggy bag, and I ran up to her and I was like, where's your bag from? And she was like baggy London. I can tell it from the way that she was saying it can. Yeah, I can tell from the way she was saying it. Like it was kind of blase that like she gets this question a lot, you know, and I was just like, I'm baggy. Baggy leaded. Oh, my God was she shook. I was like, I'm baggy London. And then I was also like, as I was walking was actually just about to post something on our Instagram. So I was like, showing her I was like, Well, yeah, I'm baggy London. And she was like, oh my god, I love what you do. And then anyways, obviously, this has never happened to me before. So I just asked to take a picture of her and her friends and she looked so cute. She was wearing it with like, the most adorable outfit and her friends looked adorable as well. And it was a Sunday and it's like just a perfect like Sunday type of bag. They were going to like they had just been to the flower market or something. They had these like cute flowers on them. But yeah, it was super surreal. I remember having like said bye to them. I immediately like cold everyone I told my parents and I remember sending the photo to my parents being like, they're gonna think this is my friend. These are my friends. I need to make it very clear that I bumped into these people, and they were wearing my bag. But it's actually so interesting. Literally stranger danger. And it's also like incentivized me to like be outed about more like a simple walk to the post office now is more exciting because I keep my eyes peeled being like, maybe someone's wearing a baggie. And I also might ask my boyfriend to do some like address heat mapping, and see if there's like any sort of like network effects of, you know, people in East London, maybe are wearing the bag and telling their friends, but yeah, super, super exciting stuff.
Rhaime Kim:Do you have a lot of customers? Like, is there a typical profile of your customer? From what you're describing? Like? Maybe not, but are there a certain like, maybe you have a lot of London customers, given where you're physically based right now? Or like, do you find that baggy resonates a lot with like, Gen Z? or certain, like age groups or personalities? Like have you noticed any patterns with your audience? And do you have a target audience as of now,
Claire Zhong:I will say that all my customers are usually female. So that's one thing. And then I guess, like on Instagram, anyone who's used like Instagram ads, you can like have these like targeting profiles. And what I usually do is like 18, to like 50 years old, both genders, UK, US, because it's just like large markets, English speaking. And then either I do like, are similar to your followers on baggy, which obviously is just like, reproduces itself. Or you can choose like interests. So like interests and fashion accessories. And then usually that means that the people who are seeing the ads, the right people kind of find you. But yeah, I do have a lot of London based customers, they all kind of coalesce around East London, which is interesting. I personally live kind of in Central East. But yeah, I think there's a lot of like, boutique labels that originate from from East London. And then I also get customers from like, the wider UK, folk from Australia. And then a lot of people from the US as well. And in the US, it's really like you get like the bicoastal representation like New York, California, but then I also have like a lot of like Floridians from Utah randomly. Lots of Southerners buying my bat. Yeah, people from Texas, but then also like Mississippi, Boston, um, but then yeah, like, I also have customers from, like Singapore, and Saudi Arabia, and, you know, everywhere in Europe. Like, it is, it's not like I have big representation in each of these geographies. But just like being able to say that like you last week, I posted a package to, you know, check. And then today I'm posting, you know, the UK orders like is, is just, yeah, something that's quite, quite amazing.
Rhaime Kim:And I think that's the beauty of the internet. I think it's we're so lucky to exist in a day and age where it is honestly, so easy to, for me, this is my second ever episode. But it was honestly very easy to get this going. And I think it's so cool that we have all these things that make up setting like the shop and the logistics, doing all of that stuff online. Like there's so many kind of partners out there that make it turn key. So that's really cool. Do you like if you don't mind me asking like, what's the general size of your business? Like, how many orders have you filled? How big is your business right now?
Claire Zhong:Yeah, so I think we have like order of like 100, like hundreds or so orders hundreds or so customers as well. And yeah, I think that represents we, our growth has been pretty stable over the past year or so. But you know, we've not really departed or divorced from like our initial product line, we've had one product in several colorways we've just launched kind of a similar product, which is like the baggy flop. So yeah, I think that's kind of the general size of our business right now. With pretty stable grows. And to be honest, in terms of investing more into that growth, it'll be something that I have to be quite considered about just because it's just myself. And, you know, I have a full time job. This is something that I'm doing on the side. And I think, you know, all the amazing reasons why Viy has been so rewarding, you know, the fact that it's taken on a life of its own, like I've been able to see and react to the way that our customers kind of wear baggy and interpret baggy. Those are all the same brief as I think we should be, like, I guess, cognizant and heed why kind of like lots of grows, especially in kind of fashion businesses can be something that you need to be aware of as well, just because it can take on a life of its own, you can lose like your creative voice in the entire process. And that's something that I'm here to not do. Nor will it be something that I'll be able to contend with, just with my capacity right now. But yeah,
Rhaime Kim:right now, you're essentially a one woman show, I would imagine, and you have a tailor, as well, who helps you create the bags? What does your general like, kind of your operational workflow look like? Do you keep inventory? How do you fulfill the orders? It sounds like you are filling them, yourselves yourself and shipping it?
Claire Zhong:Yeah, it's pretty chaotic, to be honest with you. And I think the kind of I, I follow a lot of kind of similar size sellers on Depop, and social media as well. And I think sometimes the illusion that folk give is that they have everything kind of in order, they have this like super seamless workflow where they can fulfill everything and be super streamlined with everything. That's definitely not what it is with me. Yeah, we have kind of like ad hoc drops. So we kind of produce in very small quantities, which I think is another reason we haven't been able to grow. Loads. Because these bags are handmade, the tailor can make maybe one or two a date. And they're obviously not working full time on this at all. So we produce some very, very small quantities, the fabric is deadstock, and overall fabric. So actually, even if it is the same color, there could be sometimes some variants just based on what fabric we get. So definitely produce in small quantities, they get sent to me, and I restock the inventory. And I do these drops, which I mark it on social media. And then when they sell out, they sell out. And then I fulfilled orders myself. I have like I print labels if they're in the UK, otherwise, I go to the post office, if they're international, it's quite manual, I literally write out all of the addresses on my own definitely an easier way to do that swab. And it's something that I know it's something I want to definitely improve on. Like I asked my boyfriend, I was like, What is one thing you would change about baggie? And he was like, the extremely laborious way that you fulfill as well as your pocket? Yeah. Because the pack? Yeah, because I do everything myself to keep costs low. I just use pretty basic packaging, whereas I don't know if you've ever shopped from certain small businesses, I think what really kind of levels them up? Is that that like beautiful packaging that end to end experience you get with like the personalized No, like tissue paper, all of that. So that's something that yeah, 100% would take our business to the next level. But right now it's it's pretty chaotic and ad hoc, to be honest,
Rhaime Kim:but you make it work. And you still have clients from all over the world. So but can definitely see how like this is I mean, it I don't know how you get it done, you know, but what are your current sales channels? Are you on Depop? You have an online shop, where are you listed? And where do you seem to get the most orders. So
Claire Zhong:I sell everything on my website by Guillain newgarden.com. Previously, I was selling on a sauce marketplace Depop as well as Etsy. Cool, but I mean, because of like the margins that they take, I just kind of deprioritize those channels. But it's a great way I think to kind of get started and get your product out there. Where you know, there's going to be like an audience, a cohort of buyers who liked kind of similar items. So 100% think that those are great channels that helped me, I'm sure kind of get started and build up a customer base, especially with like the number of followers I had on Depop at the time, but right now I sell mainly through my website and I do my marketing mainly through Instagram. I did Tik Tok before as well, but it's kind of high lift to be honest. Yeah, mainly just
Rhaime Kim:what have been like some of the most challenging aspects of your business.
Claire Zhong:So I think at the beginning there was I was seeing absolutely nothing like it on the market and that was challenging because I was like, Is this even? Cute? Is this even it pretty, like I said, it's not something that's my style. And I felt this pressure to always wear my bag. I love bugs in general, but I was wearing my bag with everything, even with outfits that didn't go. So I think from like, yeah, yeah, like a creative process perspective, that was challenging, because it's hard to kind of build confidence at the beginning, when literally everything that you're seeing on the market are these. And in hindsight, you know, this is the whole thing with fashion, right, like things look dated really quickly. But at the time, it was all of these tiny baguette bags. And you've even now, I think people are adopting these tiny kind of snakeskin PVC style structured bags. Whereas I think I was on like, a completely different kind of direction. But I did have like, my style inspiration, like Molly Goddard, Chet Lowe and and the stuff that they were doing, really, for me felt like it was artful and raise the bar. So that was one of the challenges. That challenges evolved a little bit. Now, with kind of brands copying your styles, I think this is something that small businesses universally deal with were bigger labels, AliExpress, so on and so forth, will refer to small businesses designs, and sell them at much lower price points. With me, I didn't really have kind of like AliExpress, or any of that. But there was like a similar retailer based in Australia, which ripped off by design, you know, the dimensions were exactly the same. I spoke at length about the dimensions of our bag being really big, and it just seemed a little bit too serendipitous for it to be, you know, a coincidence. And actually, it was an interesting experience, where when we confronted this retailer about it, they blocked not only myself, but all of my followers on Instagram. And, yeah, so that was for me, like beyond admission of guilt. And then, only when one of my followers who has worked with this brand before reached out that they kind of make claims about seeing this design elsewhere in Japan. But anyways, I kind of let that drop as Yeah, I know. And I was like, first of all, even if it was from Japan, you shouldn't have copied it. And second of all, if that's the case, then show me the pictures, you know. So that's a challenge. It's nearly like now that ruffles are becoming all the trend like you see it just with fancy club, the kind of rise of big scrunchies coquette cottage and ballet styles. I want to kind of think that it's like the world catching up with these big, more organic, more ethereal styles, as opposed to just being serendipitous. And I think us having conviction in that design has been super great. But then it does mean that there are going to be a lot of designs that are similar to yours or derivative of yours. And being able to stay authentic and have a distinct USP, and I guess value proposition in light of that, and be truly differentiating is is, I guess, a new challenge that we need to contend contend with.
Rhaime Kim:I mean, they say like, imitation is the biggest compliment or whatever. But I think when you're in that moment, it's a must have been really, like really stressful and frustrating. So yeah, it's, you know, it's pretty awful. Honestly, I have seen it I have, I know an artist, and I think her work was also copied by another artist. And it sounded like, really, I don't know, I just feel like I feel horrible if I were in that position. So it sucks that you went through that. What advice would you give yourself when you were getting started on this?
Claire Zhong:I think I always think back to the moment where I started baggy, you know, made that first prototype, and I think it was very arbitrary. It could have gone either way. I could have just stuck with the NF T's I could have not pursued the more analog route. I think the advice I would probably give myself is you always surprise yourself. And you might be surprised by the sort of styles that you like, and the art that you create. And also let your customers and I guess let the market surprise you as well with how they interpret and reproduce your your designs. Um, I think it's the advice I would give anyone, I guess creating their own product, or starting their own thing. It's kind of harken back to what I said at the beginning. There's so much onus to have that very, very coherent plan a narrative when when you start something, and I think that comes from the proliferation of so much content around being a founder, raising money, pitch decks, you know, it's all about being super cogent, and you know, the elevator pitch. And sometimes when people think that they have something that's a little bit more like in Kuwait, and, you know, rudimentary, unformed, it really shakes your confidence, but it's going back to that reliance on your intuition. And trust in your gut, that you have something, you know, valuable to say and valuable to create. And I think it's actually done us a disservice, you know, this over philosophizing, and over intellectualizing of what it means to be a founder and what it means to be a creator. It really isn't so glamorous. And, you know, in product management, we have this idea of an MVP. And it really is true, like, what is the minimum viable version of what you're trying to create, that you still think represents what you want to do, but is so low lift, that you can get it out to the market, and have the market give you you know, the reactions and the insights and the knowledge you need to evolve that into something that people continue to love. And it's exciting, you know, it'll be exciting. It's more exciting than scary for me to be able to see, you know, whether or not folk love what, what you create. So I think that really is the advice that I would give myself and anyone else who is who is trying to start something, right, like don't
Rhaime Kim:get too mentally bogged down and focus on doing and creating what you love. You're a senior product manager at D pop. Is it challenging? juggling your work with baggy? And do you see any? I guess you talked about MVPs the concept of that helping you charge forward with baggy? Is there anything you've learned through your work and product that's helped you with baggy?
Claire Zhong:Honestly, it's it's not that difficult juggling my job and baggy, like even when I was working in consulting, I found the time to work on, you know, the accessories business that I was working on. But I think yeah, reflecting on your question, I think a lot of stuff about being a product manager has helped me be, you know, a good CEO and founder of of baggy as well. Not only from like a methodology perspective, but also just in, I guess this idea of like product market fit about thinking about user needs, it's obviously a little bit different, because the problems that you're trying to solve with digital interfaces and apps with millions and millions of customers and traffic are going to be different than creating a product that people seem to love and are able to appreciate, regardless of having this like true user need. So definitely from like, being a founder, and being your own, like mini CEO, which is I guess what all PMS are, that's definitely helped. And then obviously, the working in a fashion tech company, and creative marketplace, there are natural synergies as well, what we do at Depop is we try to optimize our product experience to convert people and optimize sales that's very similar to what I do on my ecommerce platform. So, you know, I've been able to run experiments on my product page and run email campaigns, and play around with product listings and the way that they show and that that's, that's very much, you know, transferable from the day to day of what I do at Depop. So I'm very lucky.
Rhaime Kim:Yeah, that's so cool. I guess there are like things you must observe because you have to understand your customer who are other business owners like you with brands to be a great product manager at Depop. So I can see how that ends up actually fueling your knowledge and creating baggy. What's next for baggy? You mentioned that there's original bag there was also a one with a flap. Are you interested in creating completely different types of bags or focus on a different category of products? Or do you think with your current designs, it's something that you want to continue making that iconic, just baggy bag.
Claire Zhong:So we just launched the baggy flat bag which as you mentioned how is a flop to kind of keep your belongings secure with our iconic design. I think in terms of products, I think we're instead of kind of expanding our product lines, I might actually refine it and take a step back and see, you know, we've got infinity colors, you know, and that's just, you know, a tax consequence of bias, exactly a consequence of bias to action is that you end up with a lot of products. And, you know, I I'm sure you're kind of familiar with this idea of tech debt, when you're working in an experimentation driven environment, you kind of accumulate layers and layers of code that has just been added. So I think the next step for me is kind of taking a step back, trying to refine our proposition, whether that be cutting out some of our product lines to kind of, you know, return to the idea of this minimalist concept of having one iconic style in a few colors. I think that will be one thing that I do, I will try to think about my end to end fulfillment and that kind of packaging experience in a way that's still sustainable, but in a way that's considered and, you know, gives that like delightful experience for the end customer. And then, yeah, I think at the outset of the call, I talked about NF T's web three, this idea of digital art and how that was super endemic to, you know, our initiation as a as a company. And as a brand. I always think about, you know, the content I create for baggy, whether that be you know, the images I create for the product page, or tiktoks or just permuting the content that the UGC that that arises from all of these baggy girls that we have. I'm trying to find a way to kind of weave that back into our our initial narrative of being a web three boutique. Is there anything about web three, and this idea of like minting and tokenizing art that we can leverage, I'm still mulling over that one. But as I mentioned, you know, web three and crypto blockchain specifically is something I continue to want to raise awareness of in these like women and underrepresented minority groups. So having this like launch following and community. Yeah, maybe maybe that's something that that we think about. But to be honest, no firm plans just yet.
Rhaime Kim:Where can we find baggy? And how can the audience help you?
Claire Zhong:Yeah, so you can find us on Instagram at baggy, baggy dot London, and our website is baggy. london.com. And I can get you guys a code as well. We can do entrepreneurial 15 for 15% off. But otherwise, honestly, I think, you know, it's great what you're doing capturing the stories of founders in all shapes and sizes. And yeah, it just it's it's a privilege to be able to tell my story to your your following into your audience. Welcome. Check us out. And yeah, thanks for having me.
Rhaime Kim:Yeah, thanks so much, Claire. So for the audience, go to baggy. Is it baggy?
Claire Zhong:london.com? Yes, by the london.com
Rhaime Kim:go to baggy london.com It's baggy with a Y and entrepreneurial 15. We'll get you 15% off. Claire, thank you so much. I have been wanting to interview you and talk to across your different ventures across the years I've been like I want to interview about this and this and now it's baggy and I am so grateful for your time. So thanks so much Claire.